Ep. 68 A Biblical Perspective on Polygamy in America#relationships #culture

Our latest episode delves into the heart of this evolution, where tax codes and parental rights are just the tip of the iceberg. The conversation takes a turn when we peel back the curtain on the often conflated concepts of polyamory and polygamy.  #joerogan #bretweinstein

Biblical passages hint at the age-old presence of such practices. We don't just stop at the theory; we also confront the real-world legal hurdles that people in these relationships face, creating a dialogue that's as informative as it is provocative.

And just when you think you've heard it all, we introduce you to polyandry – a world where one woman balances the hearts of multiple husbands. This episode isn't just a listen; it's a leap into a future where the definition of relationships is as diverse as the individuals within them. 

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Transcript

The Shift in Modern Relationship Dynamics

Speaker 2 0:19

Parental discretion is advised . And me and Marcus came home like earlier or something , and then Alec also came home from work much earlier than expected , so we ran into each other and then we were trying to have like a date . I just at a certain point was like Alec , would you mind leaving so me and Marcus can have sex ? And he was like yeah , and he like got up and left and you guys were okay with that . Yeah , I don't actually really have Alec , you know what I mean . So , like I've been with Alec for a very long time , I have this great relationship with him , but there was this lacking area that just made me sad that I wasn't able to connect with him on race . I don't have to like force Alec to like know everything about my culture . I can get that from somebody else and we , with each of them , yeah Well , you get to like tap into different areas that you don't necessarily have as much access to with one person . You can tap into it with multiple people .

Speaker 1 1:07

I think people choose multiple relationships because they feel trapped , and the question I have for you is why do people need to have more than one intimate relationship ? Hey , my name is Lionel . Thank you for tuning into the Words for Change podcast . If you are a new listener , welcome . I'm glad you're here . Hey , we're having a really , really important conversation .

Speaker 1 1:29

That I think is important because it bleeds into or informs us into how the American social norms as it relates to relationships are changing and shifting . It matters to you , it matters to me because research is showing that , particularly those who are millennials , that relationships dynamics are changing and how people engage in intimate relationships are shifting and changing , and people are not engaging in these relationships simply because or traditional forms of relationships , because that's what conventional wisdom says I don't know if you listen to that clip , but it is clear to you simply because or traditional forms of relationships , because that's what conventional wisdom says . I don't know if you listen to that clip , but it is clear to you , it's clear to me , that there is a huge shift in how relationships are functioning in the American life and true to form , like the video that I put out on YouTube . I want you to go watch it Chaps Talk . I'm sorry , sorry , that's my actual website , but it's chap . It's words for change podcast . I wanted to encourage you to go and check out that podcast , that video on YouTube that deals with this subject , and I'm going to put out another video . But but hey , listen , this concept or this issue I don't know if you listen to that clip clearly , but here you have a young lady with two individuals One of the guys is black , the other partner is white and they're in a polyamorous relationship . This is something that this kind of relationship structure is impacting our daily lives , is impacting tax structures and benefits , is impacting health insurance , is impacting parental rights , is impacting inherent laws , and how we approach this subject and topic , how we understand the practical implications and how these affect the laws that are being made in our communities and in our nation , makes this a relevant topic . It's not that distant , I guarantee you . There are people in your community right now who are dealing with this topic . Okay , I'm getting ready to preach now . There are people in your community who are thinking and considering or practicing these relationships . As a matter of fact , hey , there may be some of my listeners , you out there who , hey , maybe you're in a polygamous relationship . Maybe you believe in polyamory and I'll explain the difference between the two coming up .

Speaker 1 3:53

We're going to explore this topic a little bit , get a little bit into scripture , because I think it's important for us who are listening to understand my intention . I prayed a lot about it and the Lord spoke to me . I felt in the depths of my heart asking me why are you doing this episode ? And let me just put this out there I am in no way , I'm in no way , shape or form , interested in any of these topics on a personal level . I just want to make that clear . This is not about me , but really it's about how young people , how people in our society , are viewing relationships and I believe , as it is the reason for our podcast , the reason why we started the podcast because we believe that the message that we have to share impacts people's lives and influence people's lives in a real level . So I'm not just talking about scripture from biblical texts from out of nowhere , but no , we're diving into . Hey , why is this important ? How can this affect your everyday life ? So we'll talk about Abraham , jacob and David . Right , the historical context . We'll get into that a little bit . We're going to discuss that . Okay , now let me just put this out here .

Speaker 1 5:08

When the stats , when we talk about polygamy on a global scale , it's relatively rare , involving about 2% of the world's population , but polygamy is primarily practiced in regions like in West and Central Africa , and it often is . These spaces are called the polygamous belt I didn't even know that . Or polygamy belt I didn't even know that term existed until I did my research . It also exists in countries like Faso or Mali or Nigeria , where there are significant populations living in polygamous relationships . I did not know that as well . So a lot of this stuff we're finding out as we're doing the research . It's not exclusive to one faith , but it's practiced by Muslims and Christians and adherence of folk religion . So we're not even talking about a Christian versus Muslim or folk religion . It's not the conversation .

Speaker 1 6:07

This , this these partnerships or relationships are being practiced by people from different faith groups . A substantial percentage of people who practice folk religion live in polygamous households , which is also true , so in Djibouti , where the socioeconomic status of husbands and the consent of existing wives are considered for the approval of new marriages . So basically , here , what we're getting at is that it is practice in many of these West African communities , as far as research says , and other places as well . Outside of Africa , polygamy is legal in the middle east and in asian countries . Probably about one percent fewer than one percent of muslim men in countries of afghanistan and egypt live with more than one wife , despite the legal arrangements there . But in the united states , right , it's largely banned and it carries a significant social stigma , and I'll talk about this in a YouTube video . Once again , please go watch that YouTube video , promise you it will be an eye opener for you .

Speaker 1 7:13

The historical roots of polygamy are deep right . There are references found in the religious texts and the Quran and the Bible . That shows people from of our , particularly in the Bible , traditional patriarchs , religious patriarchs in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament are showing signs that they practice polygamy as well , and maybe polyamory right . So there's the religious factor . So we're diving deep into this and I really want to hear your comments . I really want to hear what you have to say . So if you think that this conversation , this podcast episode , will be a benefit to someone , I'm going to encourage you and I'm going to encourage you to not see this as a problem or a virus . No , it's not that right , but I want you to see it as a significant conversation to have , and here's what research is also saying . There's a book that I read called Sacred Rights , and I'll young . Young adult children are not only changing their perspective about religion and how they view religion , but they're also changing their viewpoint about relationships . To focus on this or practice some of these nontraditional relationship practices , if you will as well . So , yeah , it's true . So the historical roots right , we can pick up these things from various ex-religious texts .

Exploring Polygamy and Polyamory in Society

Speaker 1 9:00

Okay , the legal the problem is that there are legal and cultural recognitions and there are legal and cultural issues that this brings up , that polygamy brings up , and this often has historical and , in some places , historical ties , like with the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-day Saints . You guys know , you traditionally call them Mormons . We don't call them that anymore . We call them LDS or Latter-day Saints , call them Mormons . We don't call them that anymore , we call them LDS or Latter-day Saints . Right , some of those very traditional conservative factions within that group still practice polygamy . So polygamy is generally seen today , now , in some sectors , as a lifestyle choice , a personal relationship choice , and some of them , some people , live in these relationships , but they're not recognized by , they're not vetted by the local governmental institutions .

Speaker 1 9:51

So you have people who are living , who are going to your churches and in your communities and people that you meet who are practicing these kind of relationships , these polygamous and polyamorous relationships . Okay , it's not something that you and I can run away from , and not to say that we need to run away from it , meaning it's not anything to be afraid of , without actually going forward and trying addressing the topic or addressing the issue . Now I've said two words . I used the phrase polygamy and I used the phrase polyamory , and I'm going to just explain the difference between the two . Polyamory refers to the practice of engaging in multiple romantic relationships simultaneously . So you got a person who's in a relationship with one person and also another person , but all parties are involved . There's consent , there's knowledge , there's understanding that there's a three-part relationship . So the interview that you heard at the very beginning right , is a group of people who , or three people who were involved in a polyamory relationship and get this y'all .

Speaker 1 10:57

Some people are participating in polyamorous relationships because of financial reasons . There's a lot of young people out there who , particularly post COVID , who were trying to find themselves . They couldn't take it was trying to find themselves trying to establish . After the great resignation , when COVID happened , people stopped going to work . They said you know , I'm not going to go back to my job because you know what I can do it on my own . And you had a lot of young people saying look , I'm not going to go back to college , I'm going to take a gap year . And so how did you know that how people were , how these young people were making it work ? They were getting in these kinds of relationships . Did you know that they were getting in these kinds of relationships ? And not to say that I agree with that , but you need to know that there are people , young people , who were engaging in these kinds of relationships for economic purposes . They were trying to get , you know , trying to establish themselves away from their parents , and so they were participating in these relationships and to make their way through , to live , to survive .

Speaker 1 12:03

Polygamy , on the other hand , is the practice of marrying multiple spouses at one time Right . It's also called polygyny or polygamy , polygamy , polygyny , and I'm going to talk about in my next video and on YouTube . I'm going to talk about polygyny , so I'll talk about that next . But the point here that this is a topic of conversation that we need to discuss because our social system and how we see relationships are drastically shifting and changing , and so there are legal laws that are happening , there are legal situations that are happening that are affecting that .

Speaker 1 12:42

So biblical , let's talk about the biblical text , right so , in Genesis , chapter 16 , because people , because you as a listener , need to understand right If you are a Christian , that there are scripture verses and stories and narratives in the Bible where individuals , stories and faith , people of faith , practiced polygamy . Right , they had multiple wives . Right , abraham and Sarah . In Genesis , chapter 16, . Right , abraham and Sarah . Sarah could not marry , I'm sorry , she could not have a husband . Sorry , mary , I'm sorry she could not have a husband . Sorry , sarah could not conceive a child and because she could not conceive a child , she took a handmaid , hagar .

Speaker 1 13:31

This is in Genesis , chapter 16 . Go read it and told her husband Abraham , because I cannot have a child , you can take this , this , my handmaid , my servant , sort of like a , and that was a common practice in those days to have servants , right , people who you know took care of your household for you , and sort of like maids , and back in that time , ancient time , they had what they called a maid servant . So you may have a wife who had multiple people or women in this case to take care of various things in the home , and there's a lot of women who actually do that today . They don't call these people maid servants , but they may call them nannies and so forth and so on . Okay , but Abraham took his wife's suggestion , took Hagar , had relationships with her and then they produced the son Ishmael , and Sarah was okay with that . Now , the result of that relationship was pretty contradictory and you can go and read it , because I want to encourage you to do that , but it shows you what the result of that relationship was .

Speaker 1 14:38

Jacob married Leah and Rachel . This is in Genesis 29 and 30 . And you see that Leah and Rachel's father right deceived them , so Rachel also had a child . Sorry , jacob married Leah and he married Rachel , and he also had a child with their handmaidens , belhah and Zephah . This is in Genesis 29 and 30 . So once again , once again , you see that you have polygamy being practiced , and these are and these stories are coming from people in the scripture faith , fathers in the Christian , judeo-christian tradition . You are seeing this happening . You're seeing this happening .

Speaker 1 15:24

David had multiple wives , right , he had Michal , abigail and Bathsheba , and among others . This is 2 Samuel 3 , 2-5-6 . 11 , 26 , and 27 . So , once again , it's important for us to ask these questions right . I begin the way I started why do people care ? Why should you care , right ? Why do people feel the need that they need to have more than one spouse , right ? Why do people feel that they need to have more than one spouse or more than one important intimate relationship ? And I would say that people feel that way because they feel trapped . They feel trapped Now . I want you to listen to this other clip podcast with Brent Weinstein , and he's given his explanation of why he think people who are choosing polygamous relationship , polyamory , are on the wrong page .

Speaker 3 16:27

I do not think polyamorous folks are on the right track . Within the polyamorous community , there's a recognition about just how difficult it is to make it work , but I don't really want to interfere with their right to do it . I would like to be able to talk about whether it's a good idea , whether it has societal implications that we should be aware of , but I would counsel them away from it because I think it actually prioritizes one thing which is desirable , but the cost of it is very , very high . What does

Changing Social Views on Relationships

Speaker 3 16:49

it prioritize ? It prioritizes not locking yourself into a single sexual relationship , and I think there's a way in which there is a terror that surrounds locking yourself into a single sexual relationship , and part of the terror goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the conversation .

Speaker 3 17:01

If you think that beauty is maxed out at 20 and then it wanes over life , then as a woman you're trapped in this terrible situation where you've got this power long before you know what to do with it and it's going to evaporateate , so you better capitalize on it .

Speaker 3 17:17

And if you're a man , you're very frightened that you're going to get into a relationship and then you're going to watch this person that you love fall apart in front of your eyes and you're going to be you know , you're going to be caught in that situation that , because we've got this overly simplistic mythology surrounding , a lot of people are trying to solve that problem . How do I not get locked into that relationship that's going to trap me with somebody who's decaying in front of me , right ? Yeah , I don't think it's a decaying thing . I would push back against that . I would say people just want more variety . They just want they're attracted to other people and want to act on them . And if they find a partner who is also willing to do that and they stay together , I don't see what would be the issue if they wanted to do it .

Speaker 1 18:08

I don't know if he's a proponent or he would , or if he was just being antagonistic like just playing devil's advocate . When you have social structures that change , particularly as it relates to individual relationships , the question that we must ask is why is that structure changing in this way ? What's causing the change ? What's the motivation for the change ? The whole concept of our understanding of how relationships function , where love is , you know , primary perhaps . Is that an individual choice or is that a state choice ? Right , because you can have a state to intervene on , say , abortion ? Right , this is not an individual's choice , to particularly those on the right .

Speaker 1 18:57

Politically , right will always make an argument for hey , the one you know , abortion in any form is murder . The state has a right to intervene because of a taking of another's life . Right . Then the whole conversation around well , what defines life ? Ok , on the left , or however you find yourself politically in relation to this subject of abortion , you could then say well , life is not determined until this point , or it's an individual's choice and the state shouldn't be involved in an individual's choice . If a woman decides to do that , it is not the state's authority . They're outreaching the authority by stretching into a person's individual choice on what they do with their body . The same thing can be said about this circumstance right does the state if a person chooses to marry multiple people or be in relationship let's just say , marry so polyg if a person decides to participate in polygamy and all the persons participating are in consent , then what right does the state have to impinge upon that consent ? So then the question is well , what is the issue ? If you have adults who are consenting to this , why is the state involved in this ? And I'm not even talking about the religious perspective and I'm not talking about my personal belief , but I'm giving you arguments around this topic . So then the question then becomes well , if they're consenting adults , then what right does the state have to impinge upon that consent , and is it the individual's right if they want to participate in that ?

Speaker 1 20:40

Well , I think it boils down to legal concerns . There was a man in . There was a legal case in Bolton County I'm sorry , not in Bolton County , but there was a legal case in Texas of a individual by the name of Orlando Coleman . Fox News reported on on , and I'm not , although I'm not a huge fan of Fox News , but there you go . But , um , orlando Coleman was highlighted because of him participating in a polygamous , uh relationship and in Texas , uh , you know , uh , that's considered , can be considered a felony , just like many other things in Texas . I'm not surprised by that at all , like many things in Texas , right , and I'm not even talking about what the Bible says , but I'm bringing up why it is an issue in many of these places and states . So the legal system treats , treats as an offense , treats it as a problem and stands against polygamy , which is outlawed in the United States , right .

Speaker 1 21:53

So , so , yes , orlando Coleman , right , with his DA weighing in on the situation , was saying listen , this is a family law case , right , should it be a family law case ? Should it serve as a reminder ? Or because it's criminal law , because of exploitation of persons and relationship , right ? So there are many complex problems with this story that leads to it being criminal and illegal practice , right ? And so again , why should we be concerned ? Why should we care ? Why is this relevant ? It's relevant because it surrounds the whole concept of relationships . It's relevant because it surrounds the whole concept of relationships and it also gets into if a person chooses to do this and to participate in these relationships and the state blesses that Excuse the analogy there . But then they have to also render tax benefits . How does that work ? Health insurance , parental rights , you know , death rights , property rights everything changes .

Speaker 1 23:12

So listen , here's my conclusion . Okay , here's where I'm dry . You're saying , lionel , why are we talking about this on the Words for Change podcast ? We're talking about this because young people are participating in these relationships . Social structures are changing . Not only are people redefining how they work in the workplace , how they function in their private lives a matter of a public issue , not a private issue , not a public issue . Same thing with COVID Right , I have a right to not take that is a state impinging upon my right . So what we're looking at is the state's ability to impinge upon individual rights .

Speaker 1 23:58

And for Christians , when we look at this subject matter , we have double ties in conflicting information . You got in the biblical text where you got faith fathers in a Judeo-Christian background who are saying but the story demonstrates in the Bible , through Abraham , david , solomon , right Polygamy was practiced . Now there's something that we can learn from that story up . Those relationships were very , very contradictory , very , very contentious relationships that typically didn't end well for those individuals participating in it . Hagar ended up being kicked out of the house and her and her son were homeless . Jacob's father-in-law betrayed him . Jacob was known as a trickster . David was a person who killed Bathsheba's husband to have her . He was known as a man of anger . Solomon turned away from God . He had 700 wives , 300 concubines in 1 Kings 11 , 1 through 4 .

Speaker 1 25:06

So when we look at these texts , these texts are not saying that these relationships are good . And then you have the church of Jesus Christ , latter-day Saints , who , some of their traditional fractions , still practice polygamous relationships . And what am I saying ? I'm saying that if we turn a blind eye toward these things , then one , we're not taking our faith and putting it into practice . Number two , we are not seeing how it is our responsibility to help provide guidance and shape the moral ethic of our communities that we are a part of . And then , three , we are leaving these very adult decisions up to children , who are making these decisions and they're not at a age where they can make such decisions that will affect the rest of their lives . There's psychological and emotional studies that indicate high levels of depression and anxiety in polygamous marriages . Children in polygamous families and relationships typically have emotional stress and stigmatism that lasts for a long time . Some would even say , the educational achievements are lower from kids who are in these parental households . Polygamous households Households typically experience economic burden because of it . There are a lot of social issues , religious issues and spiritual issues , and it is our responsibility to have something to

Exploring Polyandry in Podcast Episode

Speaker 1 26:36

say .

Speaker 1 26:36

The next podcast episode we're going to talk about polyandry , that's when a woman has multiple husbands , and I'm going to post a YouTube video about it and then I'm going to come back and do an audio podcast . This will not be a video , but this is only for my podcast audience . So if you have somebody in that relationship that you know dearly or work with , ask them their opinion about it . Ask them their opinion about it In the future . I don't know if I'll be able to pull it off soon , but just pray that I can have a person who actually came out of a polygamous relationship in an interview . That's my goal . That's my goal . So keep the faith and look forward to talking to you soon .